One of my friends has some really odd thoughts about immigration. He gets very angry and has an incredibly intolerant view about it. You see, if you so much as mention the "i" word, he goes off on one, branding you a "stupid...hate-filled...biogted...Daily Mail reading...BNP voting...fascist." There are no such things as "genuine concerns over immigration" like those Mrs Duffy apparently had about Eastern Europeans.
But this did make me think about the state of immigration. I'll save you worrying, I'm not about to start any sentence "I'm not racist but..." likewise I'm not going to go on about "I spoke to a black man and I agreed with what he said." like Big Dave Cameron did recently.
I do however live in a small city with a Bengali, Pakistani, Indian, Italian and Polish minority. Some might think the Poles are the most recent but there has been a strong Polish population in the south of England since the early 30's as people fled the beginning of the 3rd Reich. Likewise the Italians POW's that were employed in agriculture that didn't stay after WWII was over, were joined by over 100,000 more as Attlee actively recruited immigrants to help rebuild the country in the late 1940's. And of course the establishment of the Commonwealth meant near enough completely unchecked immigration from India up until the Commonwealth Immigrants Act was passed in 1962- this was welcomed as Indians often did menial jobs for little pay.
So against the background of recent immigration due to asylum seeking and our freedom of movement in the EU, it's important to remember there has been a steady recent history of immigration.
There are some interesting stats my wifes old university found when it comes to EU immigrants too:
EU migrants made a "substantial net contribution to the UK fiscal system", paying 37 per cent more in taxes than they received in welfare payments. Researchers found that, on average, migrants were younger and better educated than the native population, as well as being 60 per cent less likely to claim benefits and 58 per cent less likely to live in social housing.
And it's when you start seeing stats like this that it becomes apparent that some of the comments on immigration are based in ignorance but that's always going to be the case. You see, to my mind its more complicated than that. We have many different sorts of immigrants, economic migrants, asylum seekers, and so on. It's harder to find figures to support the contribution, for example of asylum seekers, who in theory should be observing the "safe third country rule" - the convention that asylum seekers must apply in the first free nation they reach, not go "asylum shopping" for the nation they prefer. This of course makes a mockery of the Sangat camp the French had, not least in as much as the asylum seekers shouldn't have even made it to France in many cases.
It's also difficult to find the hidden costs some inner city councils and police forces have to pay for in house translators and multi lingual publications, which raises the question should there be a scheme in place for immigrants to learn the language of the country they live in?
Finally there is even the discussion of whether we truly live in a multi cultural society and not simply a society with many cultures that occasionally interact but mostly keep themselves to themselves.
You see, it's all about debate and asking questions, and asking them or thinking about them can surely only lead to a better understanding can't it?
Really interesting post. The cost of translating documents is immense, but necessary for inclusion. I do think some scheme to make it mandatory to learn English for anyone who comes here long term would be good. It improves employment chances, integration and independence of those who came to the country. However, there's a cost associated with that too. There are many spouses who hardly engage with people outside their immediate group because they don't speak English, I think that's wrong because it limits them and it can lead to not so pleasant side effects such as isolation and depression.
ReplyDeleteWhat angers me a lot is that all immigration is seen as asylum seekers, who only make up a very small percentage of immigrants. They are also not allowed to work, so they could contribute to the economy but they are made to depend on benefits.
The vast majority of immigrants are not asylum seekers, they are people like myself, and whenever I point out that I'm an economic migrant I get the "Oh, I didn't mean you" response and the realisation that they could have offended me. No, not offended, just pointing out that I'm an immigrant too. And there's lots of me (before the Poles came I think that Germans were the largest European minority in the UK).
Thats really interesting, thanks for taking the time to post such a long and involved reply. Economic migrants by nature don't tend to get noticed because they involve themselves in society. Its often those that don't seem to or the groups that the Mail like to demonise that give bad press.
ReplyDeleteBeing an immigrant... English living in Slovakia.... I am def in the minority.. however, I do all I can to blend in with my new society. Having also lived a year in Oz, and two years in the USA.. I know what it is like. The best thing is to remain very English, but to embrace and become your new culture. What gets to me is the Englishman abroad.. looking for English food, English pub etc. I have a motto.. If I don't like your country... I can go home.... I will not impose my background, views on the society I am a guest in.
ReplyDeleteEqually, I get very annoyed at people in their own society that abuse the system. If you abuse the system.. **** off. If you actively part of society, earn a living, and contribute to that society, then you should be welcome anywhere... but do remember.. you are guest in someone else's Country
Your friend is neither odd nor intolerant. He just seems to have a different view to yours. I suspect that if you bothered to read his views carefully you'd realise that he is tolerant of immigration and intolerant of racists who use the topic of immigration to vent their bigotry, the BNP for example.
ReplyDeleteDebate is fine, just don't stoop to the same depths as tabloids and make it personal.
I'm not sure I agree with you Joanna, (as far as I'm aware) you don't know his friend and you don't know how tolerant or intolerant he is of the immigration issue.
ReplyDeleteI have an opinion on immigration. I think immigration is a bloody brilliant thing, as long as people contribute to the society they plan to live in, because you can learn so much from other people and other cultures.
I am concerned if people don't want to contribute to the new country in which they are living. I've lived and worked in a number of countries in a number of continents and when I'm there I always try, not exactly integrate, it's impossible because you will never be from there, but at least to learn the language and make friends.
I do get irritated when people equate an opinion on immigration with bigotry which I think is what Alex was trying to talk about...
I think it is impossible to talk about immigration without mentioning bigotry. The two are intrinsically linked in my opinion. We can all waffle on about how much people 'contribute' to our country but underneath always lurks the horrible undertones of people disliking anyone who is different. The BNP and UKIP exploit this continually.
ReplyDeleteI certainly feel people should discuss the issue freely and respectfully. I just feel that Alex has not represented his friend fairly. He has made his friend an object
of ridicule in order to start debate on the wider issue of immigration. It is exactly
the same 'i met a black man tactic' that Cameron employed. I don't like it.
I was simply saying that some people automatically think you're a racist if you even say the word "immigration". It's okay to talk about it though, it's not a taboo! I've lived on council estates in the past and race or creed are no barrier to people either either great people or scum of the earth from my experience.
ReplyDeleteAs for mentioning my unamed friend- its annonymous and more of an introduction to my piece than a damning inditement him as a person.